all right, let's sway toward other things for a hot minute.

[amelialourdes]

I'm feeling better about yesterday's Lure thanks to the wonderful members of lure_atwt. Stories, videos, gifs? They all work.

Now that there's a bit of a Lure break until Thursday, let's discuss this brand spanking new CowLip interview that has randomly popped up out of nowhere. Now that I've had a little time to digest it all, I can happily say, what are they on and can I have some of it?

What is this "of course Brian and Justin are together"? There was never an of course. I think that they made a very strong effort for there not to be an of course. I remember the talk at the convention. Who was there? Postoff? There was quite the ruckus there. I remember the lack of communication between various writers and the creators of the show and the cast. I remember the joy I felt when I heard that Brian and Justin were getting married and it wasn't because I thought that their marriage would bond them together forever. I already felt like they were together forever but at least we'd get to see them have a happy ending, see them together to the end. Is that what happened? No.

I remember how pissed off I was to see Justin just disappearing like that and Brian bouncing around like a club boy, giving me the impression that -- no -- he never grew up and there he is dancing without Justin.

In case you need quotes from 2005 from both CowLip and Postoff, you can find it here in gaedhal's journal.

I mean, it's nice for them to think that that was their intention but it didn't seem like it was then. It's what they think it is now and personally, I just think that they're trying to appease people five years later. Most old fandom doesn't care about this now but they cared about it then and people who only watched through DVDs and caught up with the show later will probably accept these answers.

Sooooooooooooooooo sigh.

Comments

[fraserette.livejournal.com]

All the more reason a reunion needs to be done to establish this..UGH.

Honestly, I was quite surprised at how accurately they remembered episodes and characters!

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

A reunion between which people? Because I think that they fulfilled their reunion quota on the complete series DVD set. I wonder what they've been working on. They've been kind of quiet for the past five years.

[fraserette.livejournal.com]

Well really a reunion of the characters, not the cast of themselves.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Ah, that kind. Well, maybe in fic.

[fraserette.livejournal.com]

I can be hopeful.

[gaedhal.livejournal.com]

Will not happen.

Trust me.

[fraserette.livejournal.com]

I'm never going to stop dreaming, hope is the best thing people can hold! Remember Pandora's box kept it in!

[friday82.livejournal.com]

I mean, it's nice for them to think that that was their intention but it didn't seem like it was then. It's what they think it is now and personally, I just think that they're trying to appease people five years later.
Exactly my thoughts. And if that had been their intention, why didn't they choose to portray it like that? I also vaguely remember the older statements. Where does this change of heart come from? I admit, the new interview doesn't change my very negative view of S5 and its ending...

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Word. Agree with you. This doesn't repair what we felt then and the explanations that we asked for that they didn't give to us. Well, they did but it's so far from the answer that they're giving us today. I'm sure that the fans who became fans later are appeased (I'm assuming -- just because they weren't there during the spoiler/screener era) but if you watched the series every Sunday? No way.

[severina2001.livejournal.com]

I've never believed in authorial intent (sp?). I don't care what the writer/creator of a movie/TV series/book *intends* for the writer/watcher to believe or see. I care about what is actually on the page or screen... what I *do* see. Good intentions don't mean a hell of a lot.

Having said that... I always *loved* the finale, and I was a weekly obsessive watcher of the show [as you know. :)] I've said from the beginning that it wouldn't matter to me if Cowlip or the writers said "B/J are clearly together 4evah!" or if they said "B/J are clearly broken up, you dumbass" -- what matters is what is on the screen, what *I* saw, authorial intent be damned.

And what I saw (a committed B/J who had *finally* put the bullshit aside, a promise to see each other, rings being kept, an emotionally open Brian) is clearly different from what others saw (a breakup, a return to the club scene). *shrugs* I don't really GET how anybody saw it that second way, but ultimately it doesn't matter. What I got from the ending was ridiculously satisfying (and paved the way for much fanfic, which is always a win!)

So it was nice to see the interview and read their comments and all, but it doesn't really change much for me. I thought it was just kinda nice to see that they were open to the interview at all. :)

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

I care about what is actually on the page or screen... what I *do* see.

This is v. v. true. I think that if we took a lot of films/television shows at face value, it would probably be crushing.

I know that I didn't see a breakup (because of their words in actions before the last time that they were together), it was just that last image that was so, for complete lack of a better word, confusing. I literally went straight to my laptop to divulge in fic afterward because I needed an ending that was satisfying. Many, many people were thankfully up to the task, lol.

I like that it didn't change things much for you! That's good. I guess it didn't do anything for me either, lol. It's always going to be what I saw in the end on that fateful August evening, hee.

[darla-isabelle.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with everything you said. But then I adopted your fanfic as canon before actually seeing the last two seasons, so it never occurred to me to doubt their future, no matter what CowLip or Postoff spouted.

[severina2001.livejournal.com]

Awww. I feel all goopy now.

[damietta.livejournal.com]

I'm sure the person who interviewed Cowlip thought they were doing something for the fandom. So I don't fault her at all.

But, even five years later I can conjure up the feelings of utter disdain they had for the fandom and the almost glee they had with the final episode. So, for them to come back five years later with a completely different explanation, well, pardon me, but fuck off Cow and Lip. I'll never watch anything you do. (And, just what have you been doing?)

Thank, God, for the wonderful fanfiction that came out of the series.

[gaedhal.livejournal.com]

Since they haven't worked in the past five years, I
would guess they are retired and "resting on their
laurels"!

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Thank, God, for the wonderful fanfiction that came out of the series.

I second and third this times a million. I literally ran to my computer not too long after the finale and was completely satisfied by the alternate endings I read.

[sodoesrachael.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with everything you've said here. I read that whole interview with an o.O face. Sure, five years later they can say whatever they want about how they wanted it "perceived." Ugh.

Also, I approve of your Lure obsession, though I don't watch that show. But I've read some Lure fic and it's awesome. And I've seen clips of ATWT on YouTube, and I like Luke/Reid much better than Luke/Noah. :)

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Exactly. They've acquired a completely different perspective than what they had before and for whatever reason that is, I'll just continue to ignore them and remember the series as I remember it.

Oohhhhh, bb. You should. You should just YouTube it all the way and get sucked into obsession, lol. I completely encourage this. Luke/Reid to the end! The fic that's been coming out of this brand new fandom has been really, really stellar. I get excited when reading my flist again and that's a fun feeling.

[sodoesrachael.livejournal.com]

Yup. I got into the series much later than a lot of people; I started watching it in the middle of the 5th season, so I have a slightly different perspective than people who watched from the beginning. (Alas, I had no showtime... *sadface*) But by the time I watched the finale, I'd seen enough of the other seasons to be shocked at the mindfuck it was. Hell, the whole mindfuck that was season 5. :/ Say what you want, Cowlip, but I know what I saw. I've since come around to the finale, but that's mostly due to the fic I've read that's post-series. lolz.

Hee. I actually read a Lure fic by accident. It was by Myrna, and lately she's been writing for my current fandom: Criminal Minds. One of the characters on that show is Spencer Reid, but they're all FBI agents so he goes by Reid. I saw that she'd written another fic, saw Reid, and jumped on it. Turns out, it was not, in fact, my Reid. lol. But it was still awesome. And Dr. Oliver? Aaaaaaattractive. ;) And I just watched more YouTube clips. Although, do you know if someone's posted them who isn't the Luke/Noah person I've always watched from before? Because they went on forever about how they hate Reid, and I was sad. :( 'Cause he's so pretty, and so not Noah. ;) Luke/Reid is totally endorsed by me. :D

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

You still managed to get in at the end! That's something. I was attempting to be a cheerleader for S4 and thought, "They can't fuck this up any more than they have already. Right?" Ooohhhh. I was so wrong! I couldn't have been more wrong. Exactly. The fic has appeased me. I don't know where I'd be without it.

Myrna's been churning out some fantastic stuff. The QaF/Lure crossover I highly recommend in case you haven't read it already. But, you've read some fic so I don't know what you've read and haven't. :) Yes! Omg. LukeVanFan is terrible. I was all for staying on his channel until the Reid bashing started. Then I was out of there. "anthonydlangford" on YouTube has all the clips and puts them on around the same time as the other channel. It's very convenient and he's very quick about these things. Yes! Reid is fantastic and he wants Luke. This is v. v. important. Yay, Luke/Reid!

[sodoesrachael.livejournal.com]

Haha. You were kinda wrong. :P Just a bit. loooooool.

And OMG YES I read that crossover. *love* Best. Thing. Ever. :D I've only read Myrna's lure fics, so if you love someone else's, feel free to rec! :) And thanks for the youtube info! That's what I'll do tomorrow before work. :)

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

I'll be happy to make some recommendations! I guess I'll have plenty of time to work on one since they won't be on for another week. Bummer.

[lady-jane.livejournal.com]

Revisionist history is a beautiful thing.

It's pretty self-serving, especially considering how it just doesn't jibe with the contradictions from the writers' position five years ago.

Would anyone expect CL to say, Yeah, Hal sucks and he said some things that if we admit they're true would make us look like we're trying to gloss over where we were coming from five years ago? I mean, what about when Postoff said at the convention that they wrote Justin's "Brian's never lied to me or treated me wrong" speech to "tweak" (I'll never forget that word) Randy? Postoff outright said that certain parts of S5 were written specifically because they were unhappy with the actors. Like when he said how if the creators were pissed at the actors, they suddenly wouldn't be in an episode. But this:

I can assure you that there was nothing sour about our relationship with anyone in the cast. We all had our moments, no doubt, living and working under constant pressure. But as with any family, you may argue at times or have a disagreement and then you make up

So now, five years later, they've gotten past their petty upsets. But their having "made up" NOW doesn't affect where the show was coming from five years ago, when they wrote from a perspective of "constant pressure" and "disagreement" which Postoff directly admitted affected the writing and the way characters were handled. I'm not really surprised that there are so many people happy to ignore all of the evidence to the contrary of what that interview relates now. They're hearing what they've really wanted to all along. Of course no one's going to question any of this.

Lastly, I don't really want to harp on this, but has this interview showed up ANYWHERE besides this single fan site for this specific audience?

As I've said, I really think that a lot of the motivation for this interview is to convince fans to buy DVDs, especially S5 which has been roundly rejected by a lot of them. Happy fans are spending fans.

Personally, I don't buy it.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Isn't it though?

YES. OMG. That's it! That's what I remember Postoff saying that at the convention. It was so mean and petty and I couldn't believe what I was reading. But, it happened. I remember nitpicking at everything from what Jennifer said to Justin in the loft which came straight from Randy's Advocate interview and the very minimal screentime that he got in S4 ... and 5. I barely remember S5.

To my knowledge it hasn't showed up anywhere else. I don't really know it's intent. It really seems to come straight from nowhere. I don't remember anyone questioning 513 lately, ha. I'll go with your explanation. They want more people to buy the DVDs.

[sakesushimaki.livejournal.com]

what Jennifer said to Justin in the loft which came straight from Randy's Advocate interview and the very minimal screentime that he got in S4 ... and 5.
You guys are killing me. My schmoop-loving heart hurts hearing that the air between writers and (some of the) cast turned so toxic.

Well, at least my ignorance is revealed some. That should teach me.

As for the interview, I just remember that bloodyrose made a post some months back, asking the members of bjfic if they had any questions they'd like to ask the QaF writers or producers, had they the chance to do so. Back then she said that she wasn't sure whether or not anything would come out of this, but that she may have some kind of opportunity coming up. That's all, as far as I know.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Dude, I wish that I could've avoided some of it to at least give me an impartial opinion on what was happening but back in the day it was all over the flist if you had nothing but QaF people on your list. Entry after entry of the same thing and I'm weak so it was difficult to avoid. I didn't want to avoid it so I read just about everything even though I was attempting to be spoiler free.

I think I remember that too but it just seems so random especially in a bjfic community? I would imagine that that type of thing would be on queerasfolkfans and not cater the small amount of people still interested in the fic.

[sodoesrachael.livejournal.com]

I think I remember that too but it just seems so random especially in a bjfic community? I would imagine that that type of thing would be on queerasfolkfans and not cater the small amount of people still interested in the fic.

Also, she just catered to the obvious B/J fans, not people who might like a different pairing. That kinda sucked, IMO. Though she did post it in her own journal, to her credit, but no one responded to that post if I remember correctly.

[sakesushimaki.livejournal.com]

Postoff outright said that certain parts of S5 were written specifically because they were unhappy with the actors.
WHAT?! How... I mean... *whimpers* Can the hate really have been so great that they would cripple their own show? ...He really said that?

I'm not really surprised that there are so many people happy to ignore all of the evidence to the contrary of what that interview relates now. They're hearing what they've really wanted to all along. Of course no one's going to question any of this.
Oh, I'm one of those people! :D I wasn't around when the show first aired and all that and I pretty much stay(ed) away from additional influences like interviews with the cast and the writers. I guess that's how I kept my naive fangirl bubble bubbly.

[lady-jane.livejournal.com]

"tweak" (I'll never forget that word)

Sorry, it was "tickle" - I think someone I was talking to at that time characterized it as "tweak" - just to clarify.

[sakesushimaki.livejournal.com]

I remember how pissed off I was to see Justin just disappearing like that and Brian bouncing around like a club boy, giving me the impression that -- no -- he never grew up and there he is dancing without Justin.
THIS. Exactly this is what I feared they were showing me.

And even though I regard the ending as a "happy" ending the more and more time goes by, I still can't quite share the celebratory vibe most people seem to get from that very last scene. I remember that it broke my heart seeing Brian up on that platform alone.

people who only watched through DVDs and caught up with the show later will probably accept these answers
I feel like a total sub-fan now. :D I never really read any interviews with CowLip before, so that's why I embraced this one now.

So, I figure that makes me a very naive sub-fan? :D

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was it for me. I didn't want to see Brian alone on that platform. I didn't see it as celebratory. There was no mention of how he would go and see Justin regularly. He should've said something to Michael about it before hopping up on that platform. Justin should've been on that platform with everyone else. But, he wasn't and I can't pretend that he is -- even though I believe they did stay together. Bah.

You're not a sub-fan at all! I mean, if I were new to a show, I wouldn't go back and try to see every little thing that I missed or didn't read. I'd just enjoy what I saw. But, you're right. You're reading it now because it's new and it's here.

[gaedhal.livejournal.com]

As I wrote at the time and many times since then:

If it was supposed to be a "happy" Brian, that's NOT the
way Gale played it. Those final scenes are NOT a happy
man, no matter what the words are. He's devasted by the
loss of his lover, his son, his (supposed) friends --
his dance is like the one at the beginning of S3 when
he's stoned and sweating and miserable. He's in pain
management -- that's what Gale is playing -- and I believe
he had a handle on Brian better than anyone else. HE made
him human. HE made him an icon. It was all Gale. Let
CowLip think otherwise -- there would have been NO SHOW
without Gale Harold. Period. Underline. Twice.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

I agree. I think I saw it that way too. That "final" goodbye to one another (which is what it was intended to be CowLip, don't lie to me) played in a completely different way. Someone said that. Who said that? I've been trying to think of who it was. It wasn't on that cast DVD was it? I swear someone said that it was written one way and it was Gale and Randy who played it in a way to make us believe that it wouldn't be forever. I know I'm not making this up.

[ineedsafe.livejournal.com]

I remember how pissed off I was to see Justin just disappearing like that and Brian bouncing around like a club boy, giving me the impression that -- no -- he never grew up and there he is dancing without Justin.
Yep, that was my initial reaction right there just a month ago. I never got the "of course Brian and Justin are together" vibe from watching those last scenes. The "of course" actually sounded condescending to me, like I'm so stupid for ever thinking they would go their separate ways but hello they didn't give me much to go on by with how they chose to end it. Gosh there go all my attempts at trying to block out the end or giving it my own twist. I was doing so well.

I think it's sort of a blessing that I got into this show (well more like B/J) way after it ended because I'll probably forever be ignorant of majority of the BTS ongoings. Wow at that 06 discussion from that link you provided. It's a little disheartening to hear about these things but sometimes I can't help but be curious. I can see how tension BTS mirrored on screen S4/S5 considering it was so clear, at least in my opinion, the show jumped shark by then. I suppose I'll stay content with watching B/J scenes from S1-S3.