let's have a little discussion, shall we?

[amelialourdes]

This morning we're talking about fan fic. It's something that most of us have indulged in. We all have personal preferences when it comes to fic. Here's how I like mine:

• Well-written. I know this sounds simple enough but really it isn't nor do I really think that this is everyone's preference. I saw a "fic" once that was made up of words in no coherent way that people really liked. It went like this:

Heat.
Air.
Body.

Like that but more words and longer. Now this ... is not fan fic. These are words that look like a grocery list. Did everyone hate it? No. In fact, the grocery list was hailed as original. Now I look at it and I think, "That is the most uncreative thing I've ever seen in my life." Someone else looks at it and thinks, "Genius."

• When I say well-written, I mean, I want the sentences to make sense. I want it free of grammatical errors. I want someone to know that it's Justin's "taut" stomach and not his "taught" stomach (see icon). Sometimes, people think that it's asking too much. People argue that "we're not writing college essays" and I say to those people -- if you're lazy enough not to hit a spell check button or not to look up words that you don't know, then don't be surprised if people don't bother reading your fic.

I think it's disrespectful to a reader to be lazy about your writing. It's one thing if you're writing something on a whim that you don't want anyone to take seriously. It's another thing to write something you claim to care about and not even think about looking it over more than once. To say that you're not "writing a college essay" implies that you don't care about what you're writing so why do you think anyone else should care?

I don't need it to be written like a novel. But I need to know that not every sentence is a fragment, that there are descriptions that depict what they're doing rather than all dialogue that's showing me nothing. It's all very basic stuff for an author.

EPITHETS.

DON'T USE THEM.

"The blond said" or "the auburn-haired man said" (last one stolen from a bad fic). No, I'm sorry. There is nothing wrong with using their names. If his name is Brian, use Brian. If it's Bob, use Bob. No, it doesn't not get "boring" or repetitive using their names. In fact, I prefer it because I visualize that character. I don't need to know the color of his hair. I already know it. If it was a physical description before, I don't need it repeated because I already know he's blond. And if it's a he then it's "blond" with no "E."

It is not boring using their names. Trust me. Believe me. I will not get them confused if you're spacing this out correctly.

• I need realism and I need the characters I'm familiar with to remain the canon characters that I know them to be. Brian and Justin will not call each other pet names. They will not say "baby" or "honey" or whatever cutesy term of affection you may associate with in your own life. Brian and Justin are not your Mary Sues. Do not live your life with your perspective through them.

I also believe in character development. Justin in S1 is not the Justin of S5. He is not stalking Brian all the way up to S5. He is not bouncing around or "giggling" like the teenage boy he once was. Let him grow up.

I believe Brian is a little more of a tricky subject. I know he will never be romantic or mushy. He will never say "baby" when talking to Justin. But I believe his character should always be there -- snarky, an asshole (not just a cute one but he's a dick too), loyal, hard-working, etc. Those characteristics should be there.

It's important to understand their dynamic as a couple. It retains the characters, continues their story from the show, and that's important to me. I want the show to live on through someone else's perspective but with the characters I remember.

Realism. Be realistic -- research, research, research. Research settings, research movies you're basing a story on, research the way that gay men have sex if that's what you're doing. RESEARCH.

• Format. Especially for the web. Don't bunch the sentences up together in one long paragraph. Use spaces. Separate dialogue for me or one character from another. Format's important because this is the internet and you have an unlimited use of space. Make it legible.

But like I said, everyone has their preferences. These are mine. I only used Brian and Justin as an example because I know people here or who read this are familiar with them. I think that I'm particularly interested in hearing from people who read everything. By that, I mean, fic where there are a lot of misspellings, sentence errors, canon errors -- is it the story that interests you the most? Do you ignore these things? Do you get past a poorly written sentence and only pay attention to the idea of a story?

Feel free to argue away in here.

Comments

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

You'll get no argument from me. :-) See my fanfic pet peeves tag. I mean, there's such a thing as a bullet-proof kink, I suppose, and I have read some h/c that was not very well-written because I had run out of all the good stuff. But that's only when I'm desperate.

And you forgot to mention epithets. ;-) There is a writer in one of my fandoms who is a good writer except for the fact that she uses epithets excessively, and it's gotten to the point where I can't get past it. It's sad, because she writes long, plotty stuff that I would otherwise really enjoy. But 'the blonde,' etc. in pretty much every paragraph just drives me insane.

I must confess that I did write one of those fanfics with just words once. But it was for that 10 word fic meme so that doesn't count. ;-p

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Better response to come but for now -- LET ME ADD EPITHETS.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Cannot wait to browse through the fic pet peeves tag! I have those moments too where I just get desperate and try to give fic that other people like a chance. And by "other people" I mean people whose opinions I do not agree with and I always regret doing that.

Added epithets! Isn't that terrible? You want to enjoy it but then it's ruined by words that are not the character's names and you get sad. :(( The occasional mention I'll allow it but every other paragraph I'd check out.

10 word fic. Totally doesn't count. *nod*

[merkuria.livejournal.com]

Oh dear, next thing you'll be asking for the stars and the moon, greedy you.

What I meant was: WORD.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

You'd think that I was asking for the moon these days. So unreasonable!

Wordy McWord. \o/

[suzvoy.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of this!

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

\o/!

[rainbow1907.livejournal.com]

Epiphets drive me mad and the same goes for grammatical errors... not the occasional ones, they happen to most people, but it gets enough very fast.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! I can definitely understand the occasional slip-up. It's obvious when it's just a mistake but if it's just throughout then I've checked out of there.

[shadownyc.livejournal.com]

Feel free to argue away in here.

When I find something to argue with, I'll let you know.

I do find it difficult to read an AU where the writer creates an unrecognizable character from the one developed in canon. An AU, including future!fics, should extend the character to another place and/or time, not an alternate personality.

I actually respect people who put OOC in warnings. If I try to read the fic after seeing that, it's my own choice and I don't fall into it by accident.

I'm a "Warnings" addict. I read those first as I have always steered away from death!fic and most rape!fics. I would have to "know" and trust the author to even think about entering one of those. The worst is to go in unaware and discover a main character death.

Epithets -- OY!!! -- I've only added "Sunshine" or "Honey" when demonstrating Brian's snarky attitude in a given moment.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Hee!

Yes, EXACTLY. Even in an AU there shouldn't be a change in that person's character. They should be recognizable as the characters we love including the same mannerisms and character traits that make them memorable. It shouldn't be OOC and people shouldn't switch personalities with the other character. Nope.

Yeah, if there are warnings there then you know what you're getting into and you can't really complain about it. But passing off a character as that character when they're not just proves to me that you don't understand that character.

I would definitely require a warning for death fic. I'm not big on warnings but that would be a big one and I appreciate that they tell me about it in advance. Then I know to prepare myself or avoid it completely.

Definitely canon Brian used those "terms of affection" when he was being a smart ass and not in a serious way at all. I understand! :D

[bigboobedcanuck.livejournal.com]

We are totally on the same page, as per usual.

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

I love that icon!

[reeface.livejournal.com]

PREACH IT, SISTAH.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

PREACH, PREACH.

*adds Emmett's praise Jesus dance here*

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

Well, I agree! Imagine that! :P

I think the one way that I probably differ from a lot of people is that I'm not a fan of the warnings. Because of peer pressure I will always warn for rape fic, and sometimes for dubcon, and sometimes for a death in the main pairing only (any other character is fair game for a warning free death). Usually, though, I don't warn if at all possible, and I appreciate that at AO3 they give the option "Author Chooses Not to Use Archive Warnings". And I have real issues with people labeling kinks with a warning, even though I've done it myself in the past. Going forward instead of using the word "warning" I might do something like say: Contains: DubCon Instead of calling it a warning, like it is a bad thing.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

I AM SHOCKED. :D

Right, I agree. Warning someone does imply that what you've written there is wrong or unnatural in some way when it isn't. I think maybe "contains" works a lot better so someone knows what's in there. But saying that it's a "warning" is a bit much. I'd like to know if Reid is dead and stays dead. That's a major character death that I'd rather avoid. That's the only circumstance I can think of where I feel like I need one.

Fic as she is wrote

[fansee.livejournal.com]

No point in me responding. I agree with you 110%. Grammatical errors, out of canon character, factual mistakes: they all pull me right out of the narrative. If it happens once or twice, and your plot has me by the throat, I may keep reading. More than once or twice and there's no plot that's held me yet. Sorry. FanSee

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

Yay! I completely agree. It has to move along, there has to be some semblance of sense, and not rife with errors. You'd think that we were asking for the moon.

[noteverything17.livejournal.com]

I love when people tell us WHAT they like in what they read. I used to write a LOT of QaF drabbles and I always, always liked to know what *exactly* worked for readers and even more so, what didn't. That helps writers so much and yet it seems like so many people just write whatever pops into their heads, JUST LIKE it pops into their heads and it sucks. A lot.

Grammar and syntax and correct spelling and usage and all that is a given for ANYTHING I read. Period. I don't care if it's a drabble or a novel, get the basics right, or I won't be reading it.

[amelialourdes.livejournal.com]

That's good to know! On the other hand, like I've seen A LOT of the past few years, there are particular authors that don't appreciate criticism even if it's constructive. People just take it too personally so I've never bothered to say anything to anyone who doesn't look receptive to accepting any help. They have their readers who can move past those errors. The reason I keep going back to them is because I do want to take a red pen to their entries and can't help looking. But that's my own fault and I'd never mock them or reprimand them openly in an entry like this one.

[ipitydaf00l.livejournal.com]

I saw a link to this post in another journal, so I apologize in advance for taking a moment to jump into this post. (I should state that everyone is entitled to their opinion on what I'm about to say, but I may not respond to everyone. Nor am I a grammar goddess...I abuse commas and periods.)

First, these two lines:

1.) I need realism and I need the characters I'm familiar with to remain the canon characters that I know them to be.

2.) I want the show to live on through someone else's perspective but with the characters I remember.

These two lines grab me and make me want to shout out, "THIS!!" To the point that people walking down the street will look my way like I'm some crazy lady, but that's something that not everyone understands.

I used to read anything and everything in QAF. Now? I don't read anything from QAF. Yes, there's times I miss it, but not enough to go through what I had before.

The thing is some authors do not understand why we, as readers, get attached to stories. Why we find ourselves emotionally involved in them and when those stories reach that point where it goes past our point of belief then suddenly cries of "Don't like; don't read!" are shouted at us. The second we mention anything that varies from complete and utter ego-stroking comments.

No, just because we mentioned something did not mean that we suddenly hated the author. It did not mean that we suddenly thought their fic should be found on places like weepingcock or fanficrants. It's just that we wanted them to know that they were starting to walk a very fine line of changing their work into MarySue!ville complete with Gary!Sue. The characters that I grew to love no longer resemble the characters they are based on.

Some authors generally want to have feedback from their readers whether it's good or bad. I've never believed in flaming an author, but if I write you a serious comment that is in no way hateful....please, PLEASE for the love of God, don't cry out "I QUIT!", make idle threats, make hateful comments to me, etc. Take a moment to think seriously about what I said to you.

As readers we are taking time out of our busy lives to read the fanfiction that is posted. If we take even more of that time to comment to you it's because we want you to know how we feel, and sadly, it may not always be "OMG, I <3 YOU!"

I think it's reactions like that which ruins fanfic for me. I can deal with errors to an extent, but if I take time out of my life to comment to an author or possibly point another where they can go to get a beta and they react like that? Then I've lost all respect for that author and the rose colored glasses I may have been reading the fanfic with before are suddenly off. I start looking at the story more critically than I ever would have before.

*smacks forehead* I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to comment on this subject...it's art isn't it? D:

[court1429.livejournal.com]

it's art isn't it?

Don't forget FREE art... ;P

Of course I agree with everything you've said. Additionally, I learned something. I didn't know epithet was also benign description; I always thought it was only hateful railing and name-calling. So, thanks!

[shape5.livejournal.com]

And capital letters! Some people believe the internet does not require them. They are required!!!

[shape5.livejournal.com]

OK, I'll be more detailed now. I am no longer the student with the oodles of spare time I was when I got into fandom. I am also no longer working at a job that required me to look busy while I had nothing to do. This makes me pretty picky in my fic reading.

I'm also an English teacher and a professional translator/editor/proofreader. I am not saying this to brag, but to explain that my brain automatically seeks out and corrects errors in any text I read. If someone doesn't properly proofread their work, or have it betad, then every typo, spelling mistake and grammar mistake takes me out of the story. If there are enough of them, I won't bother reading at all.

This means that, with regards to commenting, I rarely bother to comment about fic I did not enjoy. Because I didn't read it. OTOH, in my case, the comment "I am reading/I read this and I enjoyed it" is pretty telling, because more often than not, I won't bother (both reading and commenting).

So, hey, I read this. And I left a long comment. Heh.

[rhiannonhero.livejournal.com]

Speaking of beta reading, do let me know when you feel up to grammar beta again. It's been a bit lacking in my life since you went on hiatus. :)

Ranty McRantpants

[gaedhal.livejournal.com]

YOU ARE MEAN!

Do not read if you don't like!

Y should i follow yr rules about Brain and his honey?

Fanfic is FREE! If bad, who cares?

(I know I'm doing a very bad Jane, but really... write
correctly, know what you're talking about, and don't
whine if you get it wrong sometimes. That's what editors
are for.)

[camelhaircoat.livejournal.com]

ITA. Lol to all. Actually, I had a weird but opposite experience the other day. I started reading a story that was actually very well-written and was thinking YESS!!! and just settling in when I discovered that the details were all wrong and the characterizations even worse. Brian would NEVER say that, not in a million. Immediate click-out of that one. I hate that.

My experience in the fandom has been that although authors always encourage feedback, there are few that actually desire and will entertain an honest back-and-forth discussion when you disagree with their view of things. I never contest the fact that it's their story to write as they see fit but doesn't discussion make things more interesting, and shouldn't the characters remain true to themselves even in AU? Apparently not. I applaud the authors who actually are open-minded and interested more in good fiction than mindless ego stroking. I look forward to their work even more.

Your place is always a great place for good dish, girl!

*hug*
Amy

[highd.livejournal.com]

As a reader, and not a writer, even in the most AU of situations, I still want Brian to be a snarky asshole, and Justin to be the schizo that we have come to love, to me the characters are so rich and ripe already, that changing them too much just seems like your creating a new character. I think the only real pet peeves I have are the gimmicks of writing, I mean I can over look a misspelled word ( unless it's Britin don't get me started on Britin), or comma crazy stories, but I hate gimmicks. Formulaic yes, gimmicks no.

Like when Brandon became this huge presence in the fandom for a while, or how Justin was going through every possible negative human experience, just so Brian had to be there to nurse him back to health. It was like a h/c 7-11 for a while there.

And 1.) I need realism and I need the characters I'm familiar with to remain the canon characters that I know them to be.

2.) I want the show to live on through someone else's perspective but with the characters I remember.

I can't agree with more. I love Brian and Justin, I love them from the show and I don't want them to be some Mary Sues, I want their flaws, and their essence, to come through in every sentence. If Brian and Justin were tea weak characters I could understand changing them, but there is so much richness that can be shaped and molded without taking away who they are, and who they could be.

[gaedhal.livejournal.com]

I'm convinced that many multi-fandom writers recycle
fics. In fact, I know some who do and I imagine more
do than is generally known (since I only read fics
in one other fandom right now -- Sherlock Holmes --
I can't say for certain which ones!). But some fics
are so off it just FEELS like they were written for
totally different characters, especially some of the
AR fics. You know how it is when everything just seems
"off"!

[sakesushimaki.livejournal.com]

He is not stalking Brian all the way up to S5.

HE ISN'T?! D: D: D:

Thanks for preaching the truth, bb! We all need to hear it sometimes.